The Wrong Way for the Right Reasons

It's sure a nice problem to have. Too many Mac developers trying out too many unconventional ideas because the barrier to entry has been lowered and the platform is so attractive. An application which uses particle effects for no other reason than fun? The nerve.

Apparently, being a Mac developer recently became very serious business, and making a respectable user interface is now very important. I missed the memo and have been blissfully thinking that people write Mac apps instead of Windows apps because it's more fun. We of course, all want software that handles a task then gets out of our way, but you can do that with style.

Anyway, it turns out we all have short memories.

Back in 2001, some thought Aqua was the end of the Mac. Reading this thread on Macintouch features countless people using all sorts of scientific words to prove that Aqua was bad. Why change the standard Mac UI if it works fine? Users would be hopelessly confused by color and transparency and would switch to Windows. Irony.

Jason Harris, who actually created the superfluous smoke effects for Disco, had this to say about the phenomenon:

The first group tells the damned kids to get off the first group's lawn, while the second group declaims the rigidity of the first group and says they will never turn into the first group. Dame Fashion, she is indeed a fickle bitch.


Indeed.

Venturing Out By Choice

Up until the last few years, a Mac app with a nonstandard user interface usually came about because the programmer didn't know much about the Mac. They didn't see any particular problem with using a push button as toggle switch.

These apps were often put together by somebody who worked in the broom closet of a company which hangs "Is this good for the company?" over the cube farms. Understandably, the nuances of Mac design is not a priority.

This is type of situation the human interface guidelines were useful for, and arguably still are.

But this is different than Delicious Library, Cha-Ching or, in the more extreme case, Disco. These folks are Mac users who understand the Mac, and make a conscious decision to try something new. This is what is meant by "do your own thing with gusto," (as discussed by John Gruber at C4).

All three apps take fairly mundane tasks — cataloging physical books and DVDs, tracking money, burning data onto a piece of plastic — and make them more fun.

In an unrelated context, Delicious Library was criticized for not solving a real problem. Wil Shipley's response (on Daniel Jalkut's blog) was this:

Obviously, people enjoy Delicious Library, so it must fulfill some need for them. [...]

But even if it didn’t do all this, who cares? Even if you consider DL essentially a game, well, the world needs more games. I’d rather make people smile than make them richer, honestly. And I’ve certainly switched a lot more people from PCs to Macs with Delicious Library (I get mail every day from converts) than I did in my ten years of vertical apps and consulting at Omni.


It turns out you're allowed to like things just because you like them.

Subjective Objectives

Now maybe you say it's not actually more fun to burn a disc with smoke is coming out of the window, or that seeing books displayed in a shelf metaphor isn't actually more satisfying than seeing them in a standard table view, but that's a personal judgement. You're free to not use either app.

Unlike previous entries in the nonstandard category, these apps are the result of thoughtful design (even if you disagree with the design decisions), and a lot of people actually like them. If Disco was unpopular or unquestionably unpleasant, there would be no need to say it because it would be obvious. But there's the pirate factor:

[Norrington]: No additional shot nor powder, a compass that doesn't point North... And I half expected it to be made of wood. You are, without doubt, the worst pirate I've ever heard of.

[Jack Sparrow]: But you have heard of me.


(All sorts of layers to the pirate thing, isn't there? Not to mention the wood texture in Library.)

Not everyone likes idea of a highly-stylized user interface being the model, but faced with at least some amount of community acceptance, some bloggers have rushed to the defense of more conventional interfaces. Nothing wrong with that, but this is not an easy case to make.

You see, it's not easy to prove that the UI for Disco or Delicious Library is bad because they're both quite easy to use, and the graphics clearly weren't made by novice designers. Some say the apps lack substance, but as long as Disco burns discs and Library shows you your collection, they've met their obligations. In fact, functionally, they quite often do things much better than the alternatives.

The question of whether the user interface is consistent with other Mac apps is open-ended as well. Using a push button as a toggle is clearly the wrong behavior. That's akin to spinning the volume control on a car radio and having the car accelerate. But new controls can have new behaviors — even if they have some similar qualities as other controls.

So we're left mainly with opinions, both for and against. The reality is that the blogging activity probably won't change many minds. It certainly won't sway the developers of the apps, and I just don't think it's going to convince many users, either. Either you find a smoking window entertaining or not.

Anybody remember this?

Oscar Trash


To change somebody's mind, you have to reveal a significant fact that they were not aware of. The fact that Disco uses transparent windows is not a secret, nor is the fact that Oscar popping out of the trash does nothing but waste precious 68030 CPU cycles. Disco's UI may evolve in the way Aqua did, or it may not.

The X11 Factor

Aside from the question of whether you like the graphics in some of these apps as they are, there's a question of complete interface chaos, as in the earlier days of Unix. I actually used SunOS and Solaris before Linux even really started to take off. The user experience was all over the map, but that has little resemblance to the here and now.

Nobody bought a Unix machine for the aesthetics or usability of the operating system, so it just wasn't a priority for apps to maintain that feel. There was no Apple setting the bar. Because of the success of iLife, Final Cut, and so on, third party developers now look to those titles as guidance for what users want.

The other major difference is that this new interface concepts are designed by people that specialize in it. You may not agree with the decisions, but they are made "with gusto," not apathy. This is in stark contrast to Unix developers in the past who would basically make educated guesses about user interface.

A Good Problem to Have

Nobody is going to show up with an invitation to tell you you're allowed to do things differently. The developers of these apps had an instinct about what would connect with people and followed it. In my opinion, almost all progress depends on that mindset.

My Dream App generated a tremendous amount of attention about Mac development, and it just wouldn't have worked if the contest focused on re-implementing conventional, proven ideas. My Dream Spreadsheet.

Given the choice between a safe, sterile, predictable Mac software environment, and one where people are so excited about the environment that they want to try new things, I'll take the latter. It's either going to be here or on another platform, so be happy that this is where people want to be.
Design Element
The Wrong Way for the Right Reasons
Posted Nov 17, 2006 — 39 comments below




 

Matt Tavares — Nov 17, 06 2421

Somebody's got a case of the mondays :)

Dylan — Nov 17, 06 2422

Excellent article. I agree 100%.

Brock — Nov 17, 06 2424

Scott,

It's not often that I disagree with you. I don't disagree with you here, either, but I can't tell whether you've misunderstood the criticism or have simply taken the criticism of Disco and used it as a launching pad for a discourse on design (which I have no problem with).

The criticism of Disco that I have read, and that I myself have, isn't that it has superfluous effects. It is that we perceive the presence of those effects to be intended to cover up the lack of features and need of the program itself, not to mention its various bugs, which shouldn't be discounted, considering burning programs by design have to be stable. Many in the Mac community fell all over themselves highlighting and praising Disco, largely because it looked good, and not because it "did" good, and any issues with the program were glossed over.

To sum up, I absolutely agree with you that good and creative design should always be encouraged. I love the effects and design of Disco. But it should not be encouraged at the expense of functionality or stability. My $0.02.

Scott Stevenson — Nov 17, 06 2425 Scotty the Leopard

It is that we perceive the presence of those effects to be intended to cover up the lack of features and need of the program itself, not to mention its various bugs

I see what you're saying, but my feeling is that if an app doesn't do anything unique and useful, people won't pay for it, so there's no need to fret.

Or if they decide pay $15 for something that provides the same service as a built-in tool, but does its thing with style and grace, than I think that's okay too. But that's in the extreme case. It seems Disco does, in fact, have features that Mac OS X's built-in tools do not.

In any case, I've read criticism about both Disco's appearance as well as its functionality, but I was mainly responding to the design side of things.

burning programs by design have to be stable

I agree completely.

Chuck — Nov 17, 06 2426

I see what you're saying, but my feeling is that if an app doesn't do anything unique and useful, people won't pay for it, so there's no need to fret.

Disco is actually the perfect example of how your feeling — logical as it seems — is wrong. Thousands of people paid for Disco without knowing anything except the following:

# Like AppZapper, it is a simple and sexy utility
# It has 3d particle effects
# It can take advantage of the motion sensor on a laptop
# It can detect when you blow in the microphone
# The above 3 features are totally unrelated to the core function

Oh, and there were some screenshots of the cool effects without actually revealing any of the functionality.

So, will people buy an app just because it is said to be "sexy" and have extraneous 3D particle smoke? Yes.

Scott Stevenson — Nov 17, 06 2427 Scotty the Leopard

So, will people buy an app just because it is said to be "sexy" and have extraneous 3D particle smoke? Yes.

Did you see the second part my response?

"Or if they decide pay $15 for something that provides the same service as a built-in tool, but does its thing with style and grace, than I think that's okay too."

In any case, why does it matter? Let people do what makes them happy.

Frank 'viperteq' Young — Nov 17, 06 2428

Scott, I 'm inclined to agree with Brock. I've only been a Mac user for a little over two years now. But the one thing that has always been a constant for me was that no matter how a Mac application LOOKED, it was stable and worked to the best of its abilities and cause no mayhem to the overall OS.

Now, I'm not saying that Disco causes mayhem or anything of the nature, but it is clear that it isn't a stable application and it isn't very UI friendly. Praises to the developers for wanting to try something different DESIGN wise, but first the basics need to be nailed. Once that has been done, THEN you can concentrate on giving users something different in the way of look and feel.

Take TextMate for example. Currently it is the app "du jour". A lot of that is because of all of the extra things that one can do with the app beyond its abilities as a text editor. But before Allen started indtroducing all of the great additions to his application, he first made sure that he nailed the basics, that being a text editor. Allen knows that even with all of these great additions, if his app was a horrible text editor no one would be interested in it much less pay for it. These are the things that we as developers (well, I'm a beginning developer) must remember if we want to bring more users to the Macintosh platform and continue the legacy that men like Woz began nearly thirty years ago.

I don't think that some of the criticism would not have come down so hard or swift if not for the fact the developers asked users to pay for the application without even offering a demo period to test the application. This, in my opinion, is a bad street to drive down. Now the argument can be made that even mighty Apple does this. But the truth of the matter is that the majority of Apple's applications go through a very heavy private beta period before they get released to the public. The Pro apps such as Aperture often fit into this group. The ones that do not often started their existence as free applications and then shifted to a pay-for model. All of the iLife apps with the exception of iTunes fits into this group. Clearly, despite what we think, the developers at Apple are trying to make sure that they can stomp out as many of the bugs and deficiencies in the applications before releasing them. Even the developers of Midnight Inbox took their application through an extensive beta period before shifting it into a pay-for model. This allowed them to gain postive feedback and suggestions as well as having a group of people that would help them find any bugs that they may have missed during development. I think that if Disco's developers would have taken a similar stance, we would be using a much better application.

At the end of the day as much as we love the eye candy that OS X provides, a stable and useable application will always be more appreciated.

Scott Stevenson — Nov 18, 06 2429 Scotty the Leopard

Now, I'm not saying that Disco causes mayhem or anything of the nature, but it is clear that it isn't a stable application

I haven't used Disco much so I have no idea how stable it is (I rarely burn discs). Clearly, the application should do what it says it does, but even if Disco has bugs, it's hardly alone in that. In other words, I think it's beside the point of this particular post.

and it isn't very UI friendly.

Not sure what you mean by this.

This allowed them to gain postive feedback and suggestions as well as having a group of people that would help them find any bugs that they may have missed during development. I think that if Disco's developers would have taken a similar stance, we would be using a much better application.

This is more about the development and release process whereas I'm talking about design decisions.

Julian Bennett Holmes — Nov 18, 06 2430

It's not often that I agree that whatever people buy most must be best, but I think that, in some cases, the quality of software is at least somewhat validated by the number of people who use it, at least until there's some huge monopoly.

I think the fact of how many people have bought Delicious Library and Disco proves, or at least helps prove, that there's something there besides utter junk.

Chuck — Nov 18, 06 2432

I just don't know how you can say Disco's quality is validated by how many people bought it. As I pointed out, a lot of those people bought it not only without having tried it, but without having the slightest idea what it actually did. They evidently bought it just because it made smoke.

I guess you can argue that filling the smoke-making-app gap in the market is a quality, but it seems to me that its success is irrespective of whatever quality it may or may not have. I would say that if you are selling copies of your app sight-unseen, that indicates brilliant marketing, not brilliant software.

Scott Stevenson — Nov 18, 06 2433 Scotty the Leopard

I just don't know how you can say Disco's quality is validated by how many people bought it

I don't think I did, unless I misspoke somewhere.

In any case, who cares what other people spend money on if it makes them happy and it doesn't hurt anyone else? I mean, people will spend $20 for two tickets for a movie in a theater. You don't get to try the movie out before you pay for it and the tickets only work once (I do understand this as an excuse to make out with your girlfriend in a public place).

To look at it from the perspective of Wil Shipley's comment, you can look at Disco as a $15 "disc burning game" that actually produces something useful. I'm perfectly comfortable with that categorization, and I suspect the makers of Disco would be too. I'm not sure it's any different than paying for flying toasters or 3D fish.

If people buy the app, can't burn discs, and can't get a refund, then, yes, it's unfair. Short of that, I personally don't think it matters.

ssp — Nov 18, 06 2434

The Grouch rules!

Not having it is one of the major problems of OS X. An even if someone programmed it, I'm not sure whether things would have the same feel because of the high quality graphics.

JayS — Nov 18, 06 2435

I miss the grouch. Where's the OS X version? :(

Uli Kusterer — Nov 18, 06 2436

The Talking Moose misses the Grouch, too. Yeah, I admit it, I'm shamelessly plugging my app. That's because I think there's nothing wrong with the "Delicious Generation". I actually *like* that I can tell which window is iChat, because it is brushed metal, and which one is mail, because it's that odd variant of Unified. We have enough pixels, so small variations in design are OK.

But, to mis-quote Dijkstra: "Transparent windows considered harmful". Either be very careful (as with HUD windows) or leave it be. Window content still needs to be readable.

Uli Kusterer — Nov 18, 06 2437

That was supposed to be The Talking Moose ... unsuccessful plug if the URL is broken.

John West — Nov 18, 06 2438

I don't really have a point to make but I feel like I need to say this anyway... .

The great thing about apps like Disco and Delicious Library is that they make computing fun and interesting. I've been a Mac user since 1984 and in the early days I could sit down and just play with MacPaint and explore the OS for hours at a time. It was just plain fun. Around the release of System 8 it began to be significantly less so. Not necessarily because of the state of the OS or quality of the apps, but the condition of Apple Computer was such that interesting work wasn't really getting done anywhere, either at Apple or by third-parties. At the beginning of the OS X era the Mac started to become more interesting, but mostly that was due to how different OS X was from the previous incarnations. Since 10.3 the Mac has become really fun again. It's not quite up to the level when I would check the info-mac recent directory several times a day looking for cool new apps, but it's getting there.

Can you imagine Disco running on Windows? I can't.

Regardless of the actual utility of these kind of apps, they're very much rooted in the Mac experience. I don't use DL or Disco, but I'm glad they exist.

Marc — Nov 18, 06 2439

i think the real problem for developers with the "delicious generation" is, that end-users in common do not recognize the hard work that was neccessary to build a good product. the things that make up a good programmer is hiding the nuts and bolts from the user, solving a real problem and keep away the technical difficulties. so the one who uses the software just notices that it does its thing well and feels snappy, but has no clue that someone had a real hard time and put much of his brain into it.

so, to be a little more abstract a "good" programmer is somewhat like a ballet dancer who is performing hard and smiling to hide away from the audience what pain it is and let them have a good time, whereas someone who actually writes a wrapper around work of someone else with a fancy gui, can be realized as a bad singer who elates people through a bloated show with fireworks and a huge video wall, hiding the bad singing and let the audience have a good time.

well, all i want to say is, that it is much harder to earn attention with substance and many developers may be jealous of the quick success of fun software like disco. not at least because they feel their work not been recognized as they act in the background, not exciting the masses. because maybe people may get their work done with their software and who's excited about that? but perhaps they make their life a little easier.

sorry for my bad english, that was hard.

Scott Stevenson — Nov 18, 06 2440 Scotty the Leopard

because maybe people may get their work done with their software and who's excited about that? but perhaps they make their life a little easier

Ja. Stimmt. You've opened my eyes to this a bit.

I can see how it could be frustrating to work so hard to help people in practical situations, but not get nearly as much public attention as Disco. It doesn't justify coming down hard on the Disco developers, but it's easier to understand this other perspective.

I doubt creating Disco was easy, though. Apple's Disc Burning framework does a lot of the low-level stuff, but Disco has some features not implemented by Apple, and writing all of the drawing and animation code takes time too.

It puts additional pressure on developers, though, because they not only have to make something useful, but possibly make it fun to use as well. Cha-Ching seems like it might a good example of that, though I haven't used it yet.

There's room for many different kinds of app on the Mac.

sorry for my bad english, that was hard

Nein, nein. Es ist gute. Much better than my Deutsch anyway.

Dan Price — Nov 18, 06 2441

Scott, Disco isn't being criticized because it has a non-standard UI. Toast has a non-standard UI. As does Delicious. The difference is, these products work very well. The UI should contribute to the function of the app, not compromise it for the sake of style and this is why Disco has gotten so many people upset.

It simply doesn't work very well. For a start, the main window is fixed at a tiny size and cannot be resized. Limiting the burn list to 6 items for the sake of style is ridiculous if you think about it. It's non-hierachical and folders cannot be inspected. You cannot 'select' rows; instead each row has an 'inspect' and delete button. They must be pretty damn good icons to be worth repeating for every line. To add insult to injury, the delete button is pixels away from the scrollbar and there's no delete-confirmation dialog. It's all too easy to inadvertently remove items.

The disk-name field is not well-placed and can only take 20 characters. The transparency is ugly when it's not sitting on a clean background. It doesn't burn ISO and toast images; this is supposed to be a dedicated burning app. It's already produced a few bad disks for me, for no apparent reason. If this was a widget, I would have no problem with it. But it seems to me we're being asked to pay $15 for built-in Finder functionality in a 'nice' (subjective) wrapper, which really doesn't work all that great.

People like innovation. People liked tabbed documents, the iTunes atomic-burn button (R.I.P.), Aqua. But they must supplement the function. Disco's creators spent a day making a disk-burning app, and 6 months working on the graphics.

I agree with you that people will just buy pretty things for the sake of it - many Disco users pre-ordered their copy. It's these same people who are annoyed with it; they thought they were getting a dedicated disk-burning package to rival toast. What they got was a really limited app and eye-candy.

A lot of people are forgiving Disco as it's 'a beta' but the developers would have to do some serious re-workings to write these wrongs, and I don't see that happening.

Scott Stevenson — Nov 18, 06 2442 Scotty the Leopard

For a start, the main window is fixed at a tiny size and cannot be resized.

I agree with you about this as well as the file navigation, but it's not clear to me if this was a design decision or they just punted to get the first version out the door.

All of this sounds so similar to what was said about Mac OS X when it first came out. The behaviors of the views can be changed, but a lot of the criticism seems to center on the idea of Disco more than the implementation.

The transparency is ugly when it's not sitting on a clean background.

I guess that's a personal judgement.

But it seems to me we're being asked to pay $15 for built-in Finder functionality in a 'nice' (subjective) wrapper

So don't buy it? If you already bought it and it doesn't create usable discs, ask for a refund. If they won't give you refund, let me know.

Disco's creators spent a day making a disk-burning app, and 6 months working on the graphics.

How do you know that?

It's these same people who are annoyed with it; they thought they were getting a dedicated disk-burning package to rival toast.

At the $5 pre-order price? Who? Isn't Toast $80?

Dan Price — Nov 18, 06 2443

I agree with you about this as well as the file navigation, but it's not clear to me if this was a design decision or they just punted to get the first version out the door.

Window-resizing is on by default in IB so they explicitly disabled it. I can't think of any justification for this for a window containing a list with a variable number of rows. Ditto for not being able to inspect folders, and the weird non-selection behavior - why?!

All of this sounds so similar to what was said about Mac OS X when it first came out. The behaviors of the views can be changed, but a lot of the criticism seems to center on the idea of Disco more than the implementation.

True and OS 10.0 was panned for good reason. Remember the Apple icon in the center of the menu that did nothing? And Apple still hasn't completely gotten rid of those pinstripes. We would have been more accepting of these things had the performance been up to scratch; but we didn't get to even OS9-comparable performance (and by that I mean speed) until 10.3. The same goes for Disco, which doesn't offer much other than eye-candy.

I guess that's a personal judgement.

I challenge you to use this app for a while without getting annoyed at the translucency! You subconsciously end up moving the window. I appreciate translucent panels for photo-apps, where you want to see the document underneath, but there's no reason for it in Disco. And to maintain 'consistency', even the About box is translucent.

How do you know that?

Heh, I don't. It was an analogy. But there are so many-disc burning, image-making apps out there that I doubt it's that difficult, especially given that it doesn't support ISO. Plus, the creators made a big deal out of the graphics design in the lead-up to the release (especially that icon). Just check out the website! This is a small app.

Sure, it could get better. But the finder does the same thing for free so what you're paying for is a compromised UI and smoke effects. There are a lot of Windows app like this; for example ZIP programs like WinZip and ZipGenius. They have pretty front-ends, but don't actually do much more than the OS itself (XP has built-in Zip tools).

If they'd used a basic aqua-UI, the reaction would have been more favorable. Again, if this were a widget, I'd have no trouble with it.

Scott Stevenson — Nov 18, 06 2444 Scotty the Leopard

Window-resizing is on by default in IB so they explicitly disabled it

My guess is it's a custom view, so they'd have to implement all the resizing calculations themselves, along with the selection behavior.

True and OS 10.0 was panned for good reason.

Ah, but it improved over time. They put out an intial verison of the basic design and improved upon it.

the creators made a big deal out of the graphics design in the lead-up to the release (especially that icon)

Heresy!

But the finder does the same thing for free so what you're paying for is a compromised UI and smoke effects

So don't buy it?

If they'd used a basic aqua-UI, the reaction would have been more favorable

How do you know?

Dan Price — Nov 19, 06 2445

How do you know?

Because the negative reaction has largely centered around the custom UI. They're are a number of developers who are upset that Apple's HCI guidelines are being ignored for the sake of eye-candy, including Apple themselves. I guess Disco was release at just the wrong time :P

I agree though that people will buy pretty things for that reason alone. Had they used standard aqua, the app might not have even registered on the radar. Any publicity is good publicity, no?

Also, about the smoke effects. I have a G4 mini and they don't work for me - so I don't even get that!

Wombat — Nov 19, 06 2446

Why doesn't someone actually develop a solid professional Cocoa alternative to Adobe Creative Suite? Or Flash authoring tool? That would be a dream App. I would pay serious money for that. Or image editor, with the ability to preview compression like Photoshop can. Yes Delicious Library is beautiful, but seriously, why would I scan my books into some database? I can see that being useful for schools etc., but why would I do it at home? If any of you are actually using this software at home cataloguing all your books, I suggest you should seek some urgent medical advice :-) I don't think its normal to use a software "just" because its pretty. Or have we been cataloguing our books in FileMaker before?

Scott Stevenson — Nov 20, 06 2447 Scotty the Leopard

Because the negative reaction has largely centered around the custom UI

True, but much of the positive reaction has centered around the custom UI as well.

They're are a number of developers who are upset that Apple's HCI guidelines are being ignored for the sake of eye-candy, including Apple themselves

People can label things all day if they like, but I don't think it matters. Apple's had quite a bit of success with ProKit and such, not to mention third party developers. People seem to like things that look nice.

I don't know how many Mac developers ever even read the guidelines. What if Apple updated the guidelines and just gave the thumbs up to eye candy? Would the same developers still have a problem? I don't think it's about the guidelines, really.

The term "eye candy" is, in my opinion, very polarizing. It implies that any visually pleasing element which doesn't have a functional purpose is excessive. There are many steps between spartan and gaudy, it's just that not everyone agrees where the optimal place is (if there is one).

Had they used standard aqua, the app might not have even registered on the radar

It's possible. I guess we'll never know. I think the $5 pre-release sale might have pushed it over the top too.

Scott Stevenson — Nov 20, 06 2448 Scotty the Leopard

Why doesn't someone actually develop a solid professional Cocoa alternative to Adobe Creative Suite? Or Flash authoring tool? That would be a dream App.

I want this too, and I think Apple hits some of those areas, but developers are people too. I suspect the Delicious Monster folks made library because it was something they wanted to make. I don't know if they would be as happy writing a replacement for Creative Suite.

I sure hope there's somebody else out there who is driven by the idea of writing a legimate Photoshop replacement.

Yes Delicious Library is beautiful, but seriously, why would I scan my books into some database?

Tools to inventory books and movies existed well before Delicious Library came along, but nobody would fault you for not having a need for such a thing. Personally, I don't see the need for a 60" TV, but people buy those.

I don't think its normal to use a software "just" because its pretty

What's normal?

Chuck — Nov 20, 06 2449

Believe me, I and many other developers would love to write a true Creative Suite alternative, but it just ain't practical. Photoshop alone has been shaped by some very talented developers for nearly 20 years now. No one schmoe working by himself — or even a few schmoes working together — is going to replace that. The GIMP folks have come the closest (after 10 years of work), but even that isn't really a Photoshop replacement in anybody's mind.

Even if you did write an app that was as good as Photoshop for, say, a subset of Photoshop's tasks, I wonder if there would be much of a market. Most pros would still use Photoshop, I imagine.

Scott Stevenson — Nov 20, 06 2450 Scotty the Leopard

No one schmoe working by himself — or even a few schmoes working together — is going to replace that. The GIMP folks have come the closest (after 10 years of work), but even that isn't really a Photoshop replacement in anybody's mind.

I never meant to imply it had to be one schmoe. It can be a team of schmoes. And while I'm sure the GIMP people are quite talented, they don't have nearly the rich set of tools that the average Mac OS X developer does. The GIMP folks had to start from scratch in a lot of respects.

It can be done.

Even if you did write an app that was as good as Photoshop for, say, a subset of Photoshop's tasks, I wonder if there would be much of a market. Most pros would still use Photoshop, I imagine.

Give up and go home, then?

I'm not saying it's easy, but it is worth doing. Certainly easier than writing an operating system, and we have more of those than we have Photoshops.

Maybe one of Adobe's biggest strategic advantages in this area is everyone assumes it's too hard to be worthwhile. A Photoshop replacement wouldn't have to do everything Photoshop does. Aim for the sweet spot. A lot of of Photoshop users rarely work on something destined for print, so focus on creating a 2D design tool for digital media and sidestep all the DTP stuff.

Wombat — Nov 20, 06 2452

I think there is a huge market for Photoshop replacement. I would pay for a tool that exports files in JPG, PNG and GIF. Can preview compression. Can work with index colour palettes. Can crop, resize, adjust colour, brightness and contrast, can work with type and layers, and has cropping paths. That's all. This is the functionality I use in Photoshop 95% of the time. And yes of course, unlike the real Photoshop, I would like this app to look good! Is this hard to do? Surely not 10 years of work. Look at Cheetah3d. That is an excellent Cocoa 3d animation, modelling and rendering software. I believe it's done by single developer. So bitmap editor can't be that hard. Ok, maybe harder then some Core Data application, but possible.

Dan Price — Nov 20, 06 2453

Is there really a big demand for a PhotoShop replacement? OK, so PS is expensive, bloated, non-UB and the UI is a little dated, but is there another reason?

I would pay for a tool that exports files in JPG, PNG and GIF. Can preview compression. Can work with index colour palettes. Can crop, resize, adjust colour, brightness and contrast, can work with type and layers, and has cropping paths. That's all.

There are several graphics-apps available that are worth checking out:
http://www.eazydraw.com/
http://www.freeverse.com/lineform/
http://www.lemkesoft.com/en/index.htm

Most people don't need PS for most tasks, but there is a certain prestige that comes with using the market-leading graphics app.

Photoshop alone has been shaped by some very talented developers for nearly 20 years now. No one schmoe working by himself — or even a few schmoes working together — is going to replace that

Actually, PS 1.0 was originally developed by just two developers and they didn't have the tools that every OSX user gets. Yes, someone could produce a PS replacement, but in a market already saturated with graphics apps, is there any point?

Andrs Puiz — Nov 20, 06 2454

As Apple was busy creating and touting what seemed to be none other than OS-level Photoshop filters, I was wondering: what's the core audience of this? What developers want to use graphics filters? Then came motion effects... and still, nobody uses them other than Apple for its own pro apps, and of course, now Disco for the smoke it blows up its users' butt.

So yeah, where's a Photoshop killer? This is part of a bigger problem or dilemma, namely the Cocoa vs. cross-platform debate. Few developers ourside Apple want to throw huge resources at developing Cocoa (i.e. Mac only) apps.

Most major apps on the Mac are either Apple titles or somewhat ugly, Mac-unfriendly ports or cross-platform titles. And Apple's Core frameworks will remain largely unutilized by these. What's the solution? Perhaps we need bigger developers committed to Mac only development, or developers who aren't afraid to add extra features on the Mac that are harder or unfeasible to repeat on Windows. Ironically, Microsoft does the latter, though I can't say I'm thrilled with the results.

Besides, I don't think it's fair to compare Disco to Delicious Library. I think the latter is a fully functional, beautifully and logically designed and original app that actually fills a need, while the former is a really flawed implementation of a mundane task.

DL extends the Mac OS X user interface without noticeably breaking usability rules (in my limited testing at least), while the same cannot be said about Disco.

Dan Price — Nov 20, 06 2455

Andrs I agree, but I don't think the lack of big Mac-only developers is something we really need to lament. With a few exceptions, most of the big software packages I've used on Windows have tended to deeply flawed, buggy, or compromised by horrible UIs.

By contrast, the host of independent developers on the Mac continue to produce great, inexpensive, cost-effective apps that actually fulfill a need. Customer support tends to be far better too and it's always nice to deal with the developers direct, rather than the PR department of some faceless conglomerate.

Maybe it's the superior development tools or the attitude of Mac users, but the lack of big names producing Mac software has not hurt the platform one bit - quite the opposite in fact.

Scott Stevenson — Nov 20, 06 2456 Scotty the Leopard

@Dan Price Is there really a big demand for a PhotoShop replacement? OK, so PS is expensive, bloated, non-UB and the UI is a little dated, but is there another reason?

Do we need another? :) If this isn't that big of a deal, we might as well all be on Windows. Adobe hasn't indicated that it's willing to take advantage of Mac-specific frameworks for Photoshop (other than things things like Accelerate), so we're all missing out right now.

A Cocoa-centric Photoshop replacement could be faster, smaller, look much nicer and integrate well with the platform. I don't think it's too much to ask considering how much we pay for Photoshop. All of this applies to Illustrator, too.

There are several graphics-apps available that are worth checking out:
http://www.eazydraw.com/
http://www.freeverse.com/lineform/
http://www.lemkesoft.com/en/index.htm


These are graphic editing apps but they're really not contenders for a 2D bitmap design tool. Lineform is looking good, but it's aiming more for Illustator. What I'm looking for is something that would be useful to mock up a web site or application user interface.

In any case, Lineform is a good example of what can happen if you don't overthink Adobe's position. They write code like anyone else, and we have to write a lot less of it than they do. Not to mention it was a student project.

Most people don't need PS for most tasks, but there is a certain prestige that comes with using the market-leading graphics app.

True, but these aren't the people I'm talking about.

Yes, someone could produce a PS replacement, but in a market already saturated with graphics apps

The professional market is not saturated. There's really only one option. Remember the video market before Final Cut came out?

(responding to part two) but the lack of big names producing Mac software has not hurt the platform one bit - quite the opposite in fact.

Agreed.

Scott Stevenson — Nov 20, 06 2457 Scotty the Leopard

none other than OS-level Photoshop filters, I was wondering: what's the core audience of this? [...] What developers want to use graphics filters?

The effects are just a result of the bigger story: GPU-accelerated 2D graphics handling. I bet more apps are using Core Image than you realize.

Then came motion effects... and still, nobody uses them other than Apple for its own pro apps

You might be right, I don't know. But ironically, when Apple doesn't expose their private API, people complain that they're keeping all the good stuff to themselves.

It's also worth considering that not all apps are released to the public. I suspect some markets (scientific?) buy a bunch of hardware and use it to run custom software.

So yeah, where's a Photoshop killer? This is part of a bigger problem or dilemma, namely the Cocoa vs. cross-platform debate. Few developers ourside Apple want to throw huge resources at developing Cocoa (i.e. Mac only) apps.

Apple is one of the few big developers on any platform (not counting ludicrously expensive vertical enterprise apps). There are only about a dozen, right? Apple, Microsoft, Adobe, Quark are the obvious ones.

A Mac-only Photoshop replacement may be practical where a cross-platform one is not. The frameworks make the task doable, and Mac customers are, by definition, willing to venture out of the status quo.

Ben — Nov 21, 06 2463

My Dream Spreadsheet.

Oh man that's a classic.

I like your blog Scott, it's well written and generally to the point with a great splash of humour. Thanks for the read and the enjoyment.

Wombat — Nov 21, 06 2464

My Dream Spreadsheet.

Ironically, recently I actually had to use a spreadsheet. I downloaded OpenOffice, but I could not stand the UI. It's not just the xWindows, but OpenOffice interface is a copy of Microsoft Office. This is great for Microsoft users, but for me ... welcome to UI nightmare.

So the term My Dream Spreadsheet. was not such a joke. I found an application called Tables. I believe it's done by a German developer, it's built using Cocoa framework, and it looks and behaves just like a mac application should. For mac user, Tables is a pleasure to use. I paid the 45 euro license, and have been happy ever since. In my language we have a saying that goes something like this: "Purpose ordains instruments".

With lot of the ideas on My Dream App I am somehow missing the "purpose" part of the application. Spreadsheet has a definitive purpose. Yes a boring one, but sometimes needed. And I think it's great that there is a mac developer who dedicates his time and skill to building a good looking cocoa spreadsheet, rather then working on some "Atmosphere - a virtual window to the outdoor - my dream app" type of nonsense.

Dan Price — Nov 21, 06 2465

Wombat, I just tried out Tables. Thanks for introducing me to such a wonderful little app - it's just what I've been looking for. It's very polished. Now I can ditch my 2001 copy of Excel for good!

Scott Stevenson — Nov 22, 06 2466 Scotty the Leopard

With lot of the ideas on My Dream App I am somehow missing the "purpose" part of the application

Fun? Who dreams of work?

Uli Kusterer — Dec 03, 06 2538

Tables is a great, elegant app. If you haven't tried it, you'll definitely want to.

As to the topic of CoreImage filters not being used: Has anyone thought about with what system version they were introduced? Many apps need to stay backwards compatible a couple system versions. My guess is you won't see much CoreImage added to apps until they feel they can ditch support for some of the older versions.

If you have to write special-case code for older Macs anyway, it's only more effort to also write a CI implementation. Moreover, you'll have half the testers for that code because some will run older Macs, some will run newer ones.




 

Comments Temporarily Disabled

I had to temporarily disable comments due to spam. I'll re-enable them soon.





Copyright © Scott Stevenson 2004-2015